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 General Discussions

Sitefinity 4.0 RC

  • Sitefinity 4.0 RC
  • Feels like Christmas today.

    For everyone reading this thread - I'm embedding my comments within the posts.

    Best,
    Vassil Terziev
    CEO/Telerik

    VT>> I am glad you like the new version. I am pretty sure that once you start working with 4.0 you'll appreciate it even more. And you'll see why it took us so long to ship it. It was a big investment for the future - not just for us, but for our customers as well.
  • It's like Santa put Analytics under the tree, but then said I had to pay $6k for it.  Bah-humbug.

    VT>> We decided that we'll seriously consider adding the Analytics to ALL editions. Over time, we will add additional Analytics features to the Standard and higher editions that will not be available in SBE and Community.
  • I asked in the webinar if we could just purchase the analytics (for less than $6000, hopefully). So far the answer is no. Maybe if enough people respond to this post, we can get them to reconsider.

    Santa, er I mean, Telerik, what do you say?

    VT>> Santa listened:) As I said in my first post on this thread - we are making those changes because we are seeing the validity of some requests and not because of unexpected pressure and negative comments. Some changes we'll be able to consider and hopefully accommodate, others we won't.
  • Oh, and he swiped that plate of Granular Permission cookies I left out.  I really wanted those.
  • I am disappointed about the granular permissions too.  My question is what does page level permissions amount to?  Only frontend pages or would it still be possible to setup roles with permissions to only have access to certain admin pages for say the news module or events?  I know you would not be able to set them at a item by item level.

    VT>> You will be able to set permissions to both front-end and back-end pages. You will not be able to set them at an item level.

    That said, we had promised granular permissions to SF 3.x customers so that's another change we'll seriously consider. Chances are high that granular permissions will appear in the Standard Edition.
  • Overall happy with how they're conceptualizing the pricing, but it seems like it needs tweaking.

    VT>> Glad you liked it. We spent a lot of time to make things both simple and flexible and have a really good step-up model.

    My thoughts:

    They need to break analytics into standard and advanced somehow.  Any business needs analytics.  Standard analytics needs to be available to SMB & Standard.

    VT>> Read above. It's almost 100% certain that Analytics will be available in all versions so not much to worry about on this item.
    Standard I'm sure is where they did the most work trying to figure out the right price point - $1999 seems high for the jump from $499.  $999 or even $1499 would be better.  Maybe with less than unlimited support.

    VT>> Changing the price is not an option. $999 or $1499 does not make sense for us, especially in light of our good will to add additional features such as Analytics and Granular Permissions.
    As for the Pro editions - Does anyone know the difference between Standard and advanced workflow?  I don't have any commercial clients that could afford $8k just to get analytics and "advanced" workflow.  (Probably don't have any clients that would pay $8k period :-) )

    VT>> Basic workflow – you work with the workflows we ship out of the box. Advanced = you can go wild and create your own workflows, tweak existing ones, etc. We’ll soon make a video/webinar on advanced workflow to give you an idea. You will be blown away. That said, most customers don’t need advanced workflow. And if they do, then they would need to move to the Pro edition.

    And I assume for the community edition that "commercial use" would exempt any charity that could tolerate the functionality of CE?  How do we define commercial?

    VT>> I will try to put it in really simple terms. The basic idea is really simple and fair - if we don't make money, you don't make money. So, if you don't charge for the work done and you are not on salary in the given org amd your customer doesn't make money - Community edition is fine. Examples - you want to create a website for the boy scouts or your kid's soccer team, or you want to create a site for the local community, etc. If you are billing the customer for work and/or the customer is not a non-profit, you need one of the commercial licenses.
  • Well, very nice things are coming in SF4.0! Can't wait to start with it.

    Very disappointed about the granular permissions. This was something that was promised on the forum(s) for a long time. Much forum posts are about how to secure specific parts of your website, not only on page level.

    This is something you not only require for enterprise websites but for every kind of website, so in my opinion it should be in all versions.

    And that counts for analytics also...

    Please Telerik, deliver something more.... AS expected!

    VT>> Did you ever doubt it even for a second?:)

    Regards,
    Daniel
  • I was really looking forward to granular permissions too.  In fact I sold this feature to a client since it was one of their basic requirements.  I don't think they'll spring the extra $6k at this point.  I kinda feel like I've been chasing a dangling carrot.

    I think my answer to analytics will be to do it like we've been doing it.  There's no reason you can't put your GA code in your template and get your data the way you are used to.

    Everything else looks really cool though.

    VT>> I guess the changes we are considering for Analytics and Granular Permissions will make you another satisfied customer:)
  • Agreed about being able to do things the old way with GA but Sitefinity 4.0 is all about doing things the new way. Having to manage analytics outside of the CMS for clients is just another extraneous item that takes up time that could be better spent elsewhere.

    In lieu of a chant button, I've created this sophisticated piece of HTML:

    <chant>GA in Sitefinity 4.0 Standard. GA in Sitefinity 4.0 Standard. GA in Sitefinity 4.0 Standard.</chant>
  • I agree analytics should be included in Standard at least. I would even switch it out for multi-lingual support. I mean if your a multi-national corporation, you should be making some dough. But for analytics, everyone uses it. And besides, you need analytics to grow your business right? So it would be good for buyers and sellers.

    VT>> Read the other comments. We took your feedback into account. Expect a blog next week that summarizes all changes.
    Other than that, I was disappointed about the tight restrictions on concurrent users. I mean even with the hefty price tag of Professional, you only get 10. For the small business, I think 3 would have been nice. I mean at least 2 would have been workable.

    VT>> I know that more is always better but I think people don't really understand how much 5 or 10 concurrent users really is. Take Telerik as an example - we have over 300 people but we never have more than 10 concurrent users at all times editing content and making changes to the website. We believe that if you are running a website the size of Telerik with its features, the Pro Unlimited Edition is a pretty good option and will give you a lot of mileage. Can you give me a use case from your personal experience when you don't think the concurrent users would be enough? Would love to hear your thoughts.

    Also, 1000 content items is not much for small businesses, but I think at this point I may be asking for too much. If there was some archiving option, 1000 would be ok. But it seems that expired events and out-dated news would be counted for your live site.

    VT>> Can't promise you we'll do anything about this as there's a business decision and a technical challenge involved to implement a check what's active content and what is not. Doable, but not for the RC or the 4.0 release.
  • I'm still looking at this in more detail, and I couldn't get to the webinar until late but from the pricing page it seems fairly clear.
    I have to admit that I'm fairly disappointed at the loss of granular permissions and analytics in the standard version. These seem fundamental features to me that shouldn't have a $8000 tag on them.

    VT>> Don't be:) We'll fix this one.

    Sitefinity is stepping up to the nest level in the CMS world from 3.7 pricing wise and it needs to make sure that if the price tag is of that nature that it competes vigorously on feature set.

    VT>> That's the real problem guys. You don't see too many features on the check-list level and you don't see a big distinction between the feature sets of the different editions. We know that and we'll fix it pretty quickly. The decision that we had to make was the following - do we release some features at a low price and then increase prices every time we pull out a major release or add major new functionality OR we set the foundation once and then just focus on pumping out new features across all versions.

    We opted for the second approach. While it might not work in our favor at the moment and it creates a lot of the anxiety in the discussion, it will yield better long-term results for us and for you guys. You will get all updates, major or minor, as long as you maintain your subscription, you will get updates to all editions (we won't beef up only the expensive SKUs) and you will see only improvements in the value equation as time goes on. I am sure that this will give you a lot more predictability as well. 4.0 is a big change for us - in terms of underlying technology and in terms of business model and we wanted in both aspects to come up with a model that we will not change in the years to come.

    My personal quest is that Sitefinity be at home in the cloud. To see that load balancing only comes in at the Pro level is really worrying. Even small sites need to be highly available and be able to cope with very high loads.

    VT>> I'll disagree on this one:) If you need a load-balanced environment, it means you are running a pretty decent website and you are probably paying more than $8K in hosting alone every month. I would like to add a note here that Sitefinity 4.0 is MUCH more efficient in terms of resource usage and even on a single server it can scale insanely well.

    Even more worrying is the user limit. I'm confirming with sales at the moment but it looks like any users logged in count towards the total, whether they are admins or not? So if you plan to use the platform to develop an authenticated app, so where you let users log in to access content generated based on their user account, does this mean you will immediately need Pro Unlimited?

    VT>> You are right, everyone logged in the admin interfaces at any given moment counts as an admin user. Let's use a real example though - say you want your 5000 users to create news. In order to make it easier for them, and to make sure they don't sit in the admin logged all day, you create a small app that allows them to create the news offline, click publish, authenticate themselves and go live. How many times do you think more than 10 people would be doing this short (just seconds) operation at the very same time?

    I look forward to the discussion leading up to the release. 

    Matt
  • I for one am not happy with the pricing.

    As someone who works for a school district to have our price jump from $720 to $20000 is rediculous.  That is more than 20 times the cost!  And the concurrent users are set to rediculous numbers too.  They force you to go for the enterprise level even if you don't need that much.

    VT>> Please tell us about your case and why you need to move from $720 to $20K. As I said in an earlier comment, 10 concurrent users is a lot. Add some ingenuity around how you can take some of the publishing out of the system and make the operations short-lived, and the 10 concurrent users is not that big of a problem any more (check my comments in MattC's post).

    As far as my side projects go. The limitation of 50 pages will be a breaking point I am sure for a lot of my clients and jumping from the $500 version to $2000 just to get unlimited pages with no real benefit in increased functionality is crazy.  Again a quadruple cost increase?  Really?

    VT>> There aren't that many differences now. There will be in the future and you will start seeing those pretty soon. As I mentioned in another post, I'd prefer for you guys to complain today and then gradually make you happy through adding more value and not touching the price vs constantly adding value and adjusting the price accordingly.

    Are you guys going to tack on another 10 grand when you finally get a shopping cart module setup and how will that play into the number of pages?

    VT>> No, we are not. We will be adding all kinds of nice features across all SKUs without touching the price. That's the idea.

    There are a lot of small businesses that could have hundreds of pages of products but you are forcing them to fork out $2000 for unlimited pages and you will probably require more $$ just to have that shopping cart feature.

    VT>> Please give me an example of one such business that has hundreds of static pages (blogs, news, etc are counted as dynamic pages; meaning, a blog is two pages - one for the main feed and another one for individual posts) and it cannot afford a website for $2,000. I am ready to be proven wrong, but I need to see examples.

    Also agree with other posters hear about the granular permissions that were promised way earlier and the analytics as well.

    VT>> That one will be fixed.

    I also agree with dumping the multilanguage feature for Standard Edition to lower the price.

    VT>> That's another problem. Everyone is looking at the big frame just from their angle. All ideas mentioned on this thread make sense and we would like to accommodate them but many of them contradict each other. Many of those suggestions also go against the needs of many other customers. For example, multi-lingual does not matter for you but how about the website of a small restaurant in Texas where everything needs to be in Spanish and English? How about the site of a kindergarten in Switzerland or Belgium where it needs to be in several languages?

    Speaking of multi-lingual, we will do just the opposite - we will add support for up to 2-3 languages in the Community and SBE editions. I hope this makes even more people happy.

    Very disapointed....

    We are discussing the situation tomorrow in a meeting.  We may actually be going a different way after this.

    All that development time down the tubes if that is what is decided.  I'm all for making more money but 20 times as much money?????

    VT>> I hope it does not. As you can see we are willing to consider well thought out  arguments that take into account our position as well. If you think your case is borderline, just contact sales and talk about your situation.
  • Not happy at all. Concurrent users limited to 5 for standard? What's the point? I could live without the extra stuff in the professional editions but I need more than 5 and I need more than 10 concurrent users. I definitely can't afford professional unlimited. This is a spit in the face for existing customers.

    VT>> Please take a look at the example I gave to MattC. I would urge you to do the same - give me some more background on your project, your # of users, what they are doing, how often, etc. I will address each of those and hopefully give suggestions how each of the issues can be addressed. I am led to believe that many customers are scared that there is a concurrent user limitation without really understanding what this means, how it will affect them and what are the possible ways to solve the challenge.
    As of right now, I can't afford to upgrade to 4.0. I'll just stick with 3.7 until I find another product that fits my needs.
  • Ok, really impressed with the functionality & Gui while watching the webinar early this morning (3am Australia). It really looks top of the range for any CMS platform I've come across.
     VT>> Really happy about that. That was our goal - to create a platform that is unmatched and it gives both end-users and developers amazing opportunities.
    My main concern is the pricing.. Majority of the clients I deal with are small businesses, with that in mind I should easily be able to persuade them to pay $500 (in the past getting them to pay $899 for standard has been very challenging). Don’t get me wrong it could be my salesman skills but when there’s a platform like e.g word press it’s a nightmare to get them to pay for it.

    VT>> I understand your point, but Sitefinity cannot be compared to Wordpress. They are jsut two different universes.

    The problem I see at the moment is that all the websites I build/design for a small business, i generally will have a couple forms and analytics running on the site. Both of these features in my mind are compulsory for any website in order to measure and get conversion rates for the business. Yes, i can create custom modules for forms but I want a CMS that makes my life & the clients life easier.

    VT>> Analytics will be available in all editions. If you need Forms, you can consider getting from the marketplace Basem Emara's wonderful extension. I am sure he will port it to 4.0 in some time. The Forms module will not be added to Community and/or SBE.

    Now to get small business client to pay an extra $1500 for this functionality just won’t happen, they’ll just find someone else to build a website on e.g word press for that amount and it can easily have that extra functionality at minimal costs.
     VT>> It's not that complicated to build your own basic forms module and not force your small customers to go to $2,000. I am sure you will greatly appreciate the ease with which you can extend SF 4.0. You can add some pretty solid capabilities to the system in very short time. 
    I really would like to be able to push Sitefinity to my clients, but persuading them to pay the extra $1500 for this functionality, I have my doubts I’ll ever succeed.
     
    Keen to hear from anyone else who’s primary target audience is the small business.

    Regards,
     
    Chris