How can I explain for business the difference between the cl

Posted by victorche on 20-Jan-2020 09:19

Hello, there!

I have a task to explain to the Business why we should spend extra money on new PASOE licenses if we already have a classic application server.

They are not interested in technical details, they ask, and I should be ready to answer:

  1. Why should they pay extra for updates to PASOE from the classic AppServer if they already pay for technical support and updates every year?
  2. What are the main advantages of PASOE for Business if it will run THE same application?
  3. How much money will they make from this? (I have no idea how to count it).
  4. Was there an official message from Progress Software somewhere that the classic server is outdated in v12, and the new PASOE server needs to be paid more money?

How did you answer these questions to your business? And what other questions did the Business ask you about this?

I will be grateful for any really useful information.

--Victor

Posted by Rob Straight on 22-Jan-2020 15:23

To be sure we are all on the same page, the "classic" OpenEdge Application Server is not offered starting with OpenEdge 12.0. Progress Application Server (PAS) for OpenEdge is a a next-generation AppServer/WebServer that launched with OE11.5 in December 2014. If you are on OE11.7 (or earlier), you can continue to use the classic AppServer and it is fully supported. However, you may want to begin your planning to migrate to PAS for OpenEdge as that is a requirement when you move to OE12.

Thank you to Thomas for reminding us what Maintenance provides you. Yes, it gives you the right to move to new versions of OE at no additional cost, and yes, it gives you the right to get technical support from Progress. In addition, it gives you Trade In Value.

What is Trade In Value? The amount you paid to purchase your license(s) can be applied towards the purchase of similar products. The example in this case is that the money that you paid for your classic AppServer licenses can be used towards the purchase of PAS for OpenEdge licenses. Think about that- what other software company lets you purchase licenses, use them for years, and then trade in the entire purchase value towards newer products? This is a huge benefit for Maintenance holders!

So in the above example, it IS like buying a 2020 model of your 2017 car and getting all of the money you paid for your 2017 car to apply towards the purchase of your 2020 car! Wow!!

All Replies

Posted by Paul Koufalis on 20-Jan-2020 13:23

Below are my answers to your questions, though they do not necessarily reflect my personal opinion. For the casual readers, it is important to note up front that Classic AppServer no longer exists in OE 12. Poof - it's gone.

1. They will not be paying extra for updates to PASOE. It is an entirely new product that you must purchase. PSC *may*, for various reasons, provide you with incentives to purchase PASOE (for example, giving you some trade-in credit for your classic Apsv licenses).

2. The message from PSC is better, stronger, faster...From a business perspective, PSC made a decision to drop support of their 20-year old Java code (AdminServer, Universal Brokers, etc.) and piggy-back on Tomcat

3. I believe you are asking how much *more* money...Zero. But their costs will increase over time as they are forced to stay on OE 11

4. Yes there have been MANY messages that Classic is going away in 12. I don't know that PSC went out of their way to tell people that there would be license costs involved. All of that was the responsibility of your sales rep.

My opinions below:

1. If you are a small end-user with 25 users and 5 AppServer agents, then it is unlikely that the migration from Classic to PASOE will provide any short term benefits to the business

2. If you are a large end user or a VAR with many customers, I suspect that the Tomcat-based solution will be a net benefit over the next few years.

3. As I mentioned above, that Java code was very likely a dead end and fixing it would have been more effort and risk than moving to Tomcat-based. 

Posted by ctoman on 20-Jan-2020 14:02

ok, it is not the customer fault that Progress did not keep the Classic appservers up to date (R&D), after all we do pay maintenance on the CAppSrvs.  

Posted by dbeavon on 20-Jan-2020 18:20

>> after all we do pay maintenance on the CAppSrvs

I agree.  Customers have reason to believe their maintenance is what it takes to ensure that they will continue to have the product in the future.  The announcement that classic wasn't going to be in OE 12 was sort of a last-minute shocker.  If Progress gave advanced notice that classic was dying, regardless of maintenance payments, then customers would think twice about continuing to pay "maintenance".  

In all likelihood this is a case of "robbing peter to pay paul".  The maintenance payments from the classic customers was probably being used to fund the R&D costs on PASOE (especially considering the lack of new investment in classic)...  But the classic customers are not being given the credit for those payments towards PASOE.  They have to make the purchase all over again.  PASOE is essentially the evolved form of the "classic" appserver that had not changed in many, many years.

>> I have a task to explain to the Business why we should spend extra money on new PASOE licenses if we already have classic

They probably don't have to spend extra money.  At least not right now.   If history is a guide, then OE version 11.7.x (and classic within it)  will probably be officially supported for another ten years.  OE 10.2B didn't retire until OE 12 became available.  IMHO OpenEdge customers are happiest when they aren't on the "bleeding edge".  And if you are trying to push them to upgrade ten years earlier then is strictly necessary then it might be an uphill battle.

Furthermore I suspect that the incentives for switching to PASOE will get better over time.  Progress will have their own reasons for wanting customers to upgrade to OE 12.  It will become a problem if there are a whole bunch of them that are dragging their feet because they would be forced to throw away their investment in "classic".  I always thought it would be fair if Progress would give customers a discount on PASOE that amounts to the past 5 years of maintenance payments on classic (ie. a period of time when classic saw no new investment).

Posted by Paul Koufalis on 20-Jan-2020 18:27

I believe that PSC sales will credit you the cost of your AppServer licenses against the purchase of new PASOE licenses. I don't know if this is official policy or some promotion or similar. My understanding is that they will not credit you the value of equivalent, newly purchased 11.7 AppServer licenses. They will dig into their sales history, calculate how much money you actually paid and use that number.

Posted by Thomas Mercer-Hursh on 20-Jan-2020 18:40

It has been a while since I asked the question specifically, but I am pretty sure that Paul is on the mark here ... not that that should be a surprise.  I am quite sure that they will do a trade-in and am pretty sure that Paul is right that this is based on what you paid for that product you are trading in.  PASOE tends to be a bit more per unit than Classic, so you could end up paying the difference.  Someone else will have to speak to whether one is likely to need as many licenses for PASOE as one needed for Classic.  I would think it quite possible that fewer PASOE agents would be needed, but I won't pretend to *any* expertise in the area.

Posted by Neil Treeby on 20-Jan-2020 18:46

Progress, are, of course, more than willing to accommodate you when it comes to migrating from "classic" AppServer to PASOE.

In summary: Progress have converted a small number of our Enterprise AppServer licenses to PASOE for Prod licenses, to allow us to sandbox migration and start development and testing of one small solution that requires it.  This approach may also work for you.

In our case study, we have spent years getting to a position where we can upgrade or entire platform (3 "monolithic" GUI applications) from 10.2B to 11.7, and (fingers crossed!) we will have achieved this by the end of Q3/early Q4 2020.  As part of that effort, we will be migrating all our "classic" AppServers over to PASOE.

At the same time, our "customers" on the business side, and IT leaders who are not particularly versed in Progress but very interested in Getting Stuff Done Now With All The Cool Toys, are pushing us to make architectural decisions that only make sense if we start the OpenEdge development part of those projects from scratch and deliver the solutions via PASOE as standalone "micro-services".  This includes one project that is critical to achieving that Q3/Q4 date (replacing some ancient client software running on devices with an ancient, embedded, version of Java that can only talk to a 10.2B [or earlier] AppServer)!

Posted by ctoman on 20-Jan-2020 19:05

that is like paying for Version 12, but if you trade in V11 you get discount, even though you pay maint.  I understand though, it's a business, Progress wants to make money.

Posted by dbeavon on 20-Jan-2020 19:10

This discussion would be most meaningful if we all had some common point of reference (eg. what does it mean when you say "equivalent value of newly purchased 11.7 AppServer). It would be nice if there was a price list with approximate/hypothetical numbers to use as a starting point for discussion purposes. I think we are probably saying the same things, but with a different number of 0's on the end (depending on who you get for a sales account manager, and how good they do their math).

What made things even more interesting for us is that our classic appserver licenses were sold by "concurrent users". And that license model no longer exists in PASOE.  This makes all the difference in the world.  They only have a couple ways they license PASOE, and the one they prefer is "named user".  

Public information is hard to come by.  For example, I don't think I've even seen a public list of the available licensing options.  You would think that would at least be public since any given product is totally different if it is purchased by user/server/core/whatever.

Posted by Thomas Mercer-Hursh on 20-Jan-2020 19:23

PASOE is licensed named user, registered device, access agent, or core.  Classic is licensed the same plus machine with a price break for access agent 25 and up.  I suppose if you are named user or registered device, you need the same for both.  The possible performance difference would be seen with access agent or core.

Posted by Paul Koufalis on 20-Jan-2020 19:24

[mention:77d0f2ca82a041a08c26cc89b12b968e:e9ed411860ed4f2ba0265705b8793d05] I have heard this complaint regarding concurrent classic licenses versus named PASOE licenses and in my experience PSC has been quite strict about it.

When I wrote "equivalent value of newly purchased 11.7 licenses" what I meant was that if you bought 100 concurrent AppServer Enterprise licenses in 2001 for $100 each and the sales guy gave you a 25% discount, then your trade-in value is $7,500. Those same licenses, if purchased at full retail today, would probably cost around $15K.

Really though, I don't think they named vs concurrent license count should be much different except in some very specific cases like seasonal workers, especially if all the traffic passes through an AppServer layer. I know that this comment has the potential to hijack this thread so if you do want to expand on this, please start a new thread.

Posted by dbeavon on 20-Jan-2020 20:11

@Paul  Thanks, even the hypothetical figures are helpful for illustration.

>> My understanding is that they will not credit you the value of equivalent, newly purchased 11.7 AppServer licenses. They will dig into their sales history, calculate how much money you actually paid and use that number

When you say "actually paid", it sounds like you are referring to the amount you originally paid after the discount, then you adjust that for price inflation to come up with a trade-in amount.  It does NOT sound like you are including the maintenance dollars themselves as part of the amount you "actually paid" even though it could be a much larger figure than the original purchase, (esp. if you purchased in 2001).  

Just to be clear, my understanding is that paying maintenance is still a consideration, even though it is not part of the calculation of the trade-in credit.  IE. I'm assuming Progress would NOT even give you the option to get trade-in credit if you had NOT paid the maintenance on the classic appserver, right?  

Thanks for the information.  We have additional "classic" licenses that we need to trade in at some point, and I'm eager to hear how others do it.  And how the process might be changing since our first crack at it.  It seems like the process is a bit more complex/mysterious than it should be, and I can't help but wonder how differently this must be happening from one customer to the next..  In our case we are converting from "concurrent user" on classic to "core" on PASOE.  (It appears our concurrent user licensing on classic must have been grandfathered - since Thomas didn't list it as one of the well-known options).

Posted by Thomas Mercer-Hursh on 20-Jan-2020 20:24

Yes, no concurrent licenses except by grandfathering on any recent versions.  A change in product means no grandfathering.

One has to remember that part of the maintenance fee you have been paying is to maintain the right to upgrade to later releases.

Another part is right to support.

I.e., almost none of the maintenance fee actually goes for R&D on newer versions.

Posted by Dmitri Levin on 20-Jan-2020 21:23

Is Classic AppServer no longer exists in OE 12 and 100% gone or there are Classic AppServer executables in OE 12 that are not supported by PSC any more? And one can use them at his own risk.

Posted by Rob Fitzpatrick on 20-Jan-2020 21:31

> Is Classic AppServer no longer exists in OE 12 and 100% gone or there are Classic AppServer executables in OE 12 that are not supported by PSC any more? And one can use them at his own risk.

Gone.  It's not a product you can buy in 12.x.  If you buy/ install PASOE, there is no _proapsv.

Posted by ducity on 21-Jan-2020 00:53

Actually,  it is like buying a 2020 model of your 2017 car and expecting they give you what you paid in 2017 as the trade-in. (No surprise in this analogy that they won't include the servicing costs as a trade in- either).  

Posted by victorche on 22-Jan-2020 07:44

Hello!

Many thanks to everyone for your answers and discussions! I appreciate it!

Now I know the way in which I will talk to the business.

I will leave this topic open, perhaps someone else will have an opinion that they want to share.

It would also be interesting to know the official position of Progress Software and their recommendations on how to present PASOE to business, I think it will be useful for everyone.

Have a great day!

--Victor

Posted by Rob Straight on 22-Jan-2020 15:23

To be sure we are all on the same page, the "classic" OpenEdge Application Server is not offered starting with OpenEdge 12.0. Progress Application Server (PAS) for OpenEdge is a a next-generation AppServer/WebServer that launched with OE11.5 in December 2014. If you are on OE11.7 (or earlier), you can continue to use the classic AppServer and it is fully supported. However, you may want to begin your planning to migrate to PAS for OpenEdge as that is a requirement when you move to OE12.

Thank you to Thomas for reminding us what Maintenance provides you. Yes, it gives you the right to move to new versions of OE at no additional cost, and yes, it gives you the right to get technical support from Progress. In addition, it gives you Trade In Value.

What is Trade In Value? The amount you paid to purchase your license(s) can be applied towards the purchase of similar products. The example in this case is that the money that you paid for your classic AppServer licenses can be used towards the purchase of PAS for OpenEdge licenses. Think about that- what other software company lets you purchase licenses, use them for years, and then trade in the entire purchase value towards newer products? This is a huge benefit for Maintenance holders!

So in the above example, it IS like buying a 2020 model of your 2017 car and getting all of the money you paid for your 2017 car to apply towards the purchase of your 2020 car! Wow!!

Posted by Rob Straight on 22-Jan-2020 16:00

I recommend that you talk with your Progress Account Manager for positioning and value proposition of PAS for OpenEdge. There are many new and very useful capabilities, including industry-standard security that Progress would not have been able to replicate in the classic AppServer.

Posted by gus bjorklund on 22-Jan-2020 17:24

> On Jan 20, 2020, at 3:13 PM, dbeavon wrote:

>

> It seems like the process is a bit more complex/mysterious than it should be

it is. and it is all negotiable.

Posted by victorche on 23-Jan-2020 07:21

Hello,

Thank you, Rob, for your response!

--Victor

Posted by slegian-bva on 23-Jan-2020 22:12

Hi Robert,

Wow indeed! To use your car analogy, I would have thought the SUV maintenance plan with free upgrades which I bought for my 2017 model would also give me the 2020 SUV model for free. After all it gave me the 2018 SUV and 2019 SUV. But PSC did some hocus pocus here and said the 2020 SUV model is so radically different (can’t use leaded petrol anymore, needs e10), it’s no longer an SUV. But if a new customer walks in and asks for an SUV, guess what that customer gets?

I can’t fail anyone for trying to make an honest buck but wonder if the additional revenue is worth alienating the clients. I can tell you our clients are not happy and if we would try to pull this sort of tricks with our product we would be run out of town. I suppose Progress believes it has better customer lock-in so this is acceptable.

Cheers,

Simi

Posted by Thomas Mercer-Hursh on 23-Jan-2020 22:56

What car offers you free upgrades?  (Outside of Tesla with their free software updates that continuously improve the car).  You didn't get the 2018 or the 2019.  And, hey, car manufacturers discontinue models all the time and/or redefine what a name means, e.g., the forthcoming Mustang E.  Seems to me the giving credit for 100% of the purchase price is about as generous as you could expect anyone to be.  Do you know of any other software manufacturer that does better?  And, you got free upgrades to later releases and support all that time too.

Posted by slegian-bva on 23-Jan-2020 23:58

Hi Thomas,

Don't you get free car upgrades in your country? :) Just joking... I hear you, the analogy was not mine and I was simply trying to bend a bit to illustrate the flaw the way I see it. Progress does provide free product upgrades part of the maintenance though, right, and we've been getting all sorts of tech improvements along the way to 12.1, like GUI, .Net, OO, REST, Type 2 dbs, SQL engine in the db, etc. I don't recall having to trade in my CHUI 6 for the GUI 7. I understand the "classic" appserver had tech challenges and had to be rewritten, fine, but I think most of us would have expected the "new" appserver to be the upgrade of the old, not something new you need to purchase. If you or your clients are happy to pay for it that's fine. I'm not, but then what other choice do I have than express my dissatisfaction and hope that PSC would listen? :)

Cheers,

Simi

Posted by Tim Kuehn on 24-Jan-2020 02:22

As I understand things you can trade your existing appserver against a PASOE one. I'm not clear how they work the credits - that'd be a salesman question.

Posted by Thomas Mercer-Hursh on 24-Jan-2020 15:12

Point being that Classic and PASOE are quite different products and one can't really expect Progress to keep maintaining a product forever if it has been replaced or discontinued.  This has happened to other products in the past and it is likely that it will happen to other products in the future.  It seems to me that allowing trade-in at full purchase price is about as generous as one could ever expect a company to be.  Do you know of a comparable company that has a more generous policy?

Posted by ctoman on 24-Jan-2020 15:32

I don't like the car analogy for this discussion, i am not paying the dealership 200,000 a year for maintenance.

There is not trade-in at full price for PASOE, you get a discount.  

Posted by jamesmc on 24-Jan-2020 15:54

I have performed 4 major version upgrades and aside from the odd few issues that pop up they have all been free of charge except for the cost of my time. The next major version upgrade I have to do now comes with a requirement to learn all about PASOE, what code changes I need to make to migrate my Appserver based code into PASOE (this is unknown to me at this time as I haven't researched), the changes to the OE and non-OE based clients that consume these agents and then the cost of the product switch.  It will be a difficult sell to the people here who make these decisions because the actual cost of the upgrade has gone up in time AND money now.  We may be on OE11 a lot longer.

Posted by Thomas Mercer-Hursh on 24-Jan-2020 17:18

There is not trade-in at full price for PASOE, you get a discount.

What exactly are you saying here.  My experience is that one gets 100% credit for what one paid for the product, whether that is more or less than the cost of the new product.

And yes, I am sympathetic that when there is a version change that meaningfully changes how the application should be written and structured that this introduces a significant amount of work.  Having started with version 2, I have been through quite a number of those, ones that dwarf the change of this transition.  The alternative is to not improve.  

Progress has been very clear since the introduction of PASOE that it was the future and Classic was supported only because they try to reduce the pain.  It is clear that, if they thought they could make Classic good enough, they would never have bothered to make PASOE.  In other words, you should have been starting the transition to PASOE as soon as it became available since it was clear that it, not Classic, was the future.  Had you done so, you wouldn't be facing a big transition now, instead you would be ready to make the move to 12 and gain the benefits thereof.

Posted by Rob Straight on 24-Jan-2020 18:24

Just wanted to confirm the comments above: the "classic" OpenEdge Application Server, originally built on technology available in the late 1990's, had architecturally reached the end of what Progress could do with it. The result was a grounds-up, brand new PAS for OpenEdge product that has features and capabilities that could not have been implemented in the classic AppServer. We have been as transparent as possible since the launch of PASOE in late 2014 that the application server technology that we would move forward with is PASOE.

Any change in infrastructure technology is going to be viewed depending on the perspective of the user. In the case of PASOE, many are very supportive and extremely excited about what can now be accomplished. Others also like what PASOE has to offer, and have need time to schedule the migration to PASOE, changes that typically are small but do require a testing pass prior to moving into production. There are I am sure some that do not see value in PASOE, perhaps due to where their organization and application is in maturity, or maybe because we have not clearly communicated the value of the offering. Progress is happy to work with you if you have concerns!

I think we are now clear(er) about the financial side of the migration- whatever money you spent to purchase your classic AppServer licenses is available towards the purchase of PASOE licenses. You just need to be current on Maintenance to take advantage of the trade-in value.

Also, you are under no pressure to move to OpenEdge 12. Yes, there are excellent reasons for you to make the move, but if you are not ready to migrate to PASOE at this time, we recommend that you stay on (or move up to) OE11.7. OE11.7 will be supported for many years, and when you are ready, you can make the move to PASOE on either OE11.7 or the then-current version of OE12.

Posted by ctoman on 24-Jan-2020 18:35

I see what you are saying now.  Regardless what it is, i love the added work and challenges, and this in by no means going to deter me or my company from upgrading to 12.  It's Friday, enjoy!  

Posted by jonathan.wilson on 27-Jan-2020 08:18

The biggest cost is the redevelopment time of existing working code that's battle hardened.  Finding the time to rewrite large projects because it's "now time" to change  sometimes forces you to reconsider what are the best tools.  Why develop and get locked in a second time.

Posted by Mike Fechner on 27-Jan-2020 08:22

PASOE offers really a great degree of compatibility with classic AppServer. Where do you see big costs with redeveloping?

Posted by rayherring on 27-Jan-2020 09:00

For us it would be because of ps:escript, unless of course PASOE can 100% work with ps:escript? It's long since dead, but we have put so much time into it that we are kinda stuck with it for a long time coming :(

We are still using OE11.2 running on RHEL 5.6.

I have managed to make ps:escript do some amazing things though :D

Though it also means i'm stuck with AppBuilder, because I use AppBuilder in 'remote' mode, where the files I edit are opened on the server via my desktop PC, and when I hit 'save', it copies stuff back up to the server then auto-compiles, and I use ps:escript editor to edit the html/js/css files that aren't stored locally on our webserver.

The 32Kb limit is a killer at times though.

Posted by frank.meulblok on 27-Jan-2020 09:46

Alright, time to play devil's advocate: If you've known a certain technology has been dead for a long time, you've known for a long time that at some point you will need to phase it out.

And there are alternatives to explore, if you're willing to move to  OpenEdge 11.7. Assuming that, there's the following points for you to consider:

- PASOE has support for legacy webspeed knowledgebase.progress.com/.../How-to-migrate-a-classic-WebSpeed-application-to-PASOE . It does have a few limits, I don't know how those interfere with the ps:escript stuff since I don't really know about  ps:escript. Maybe someone else on here can chime in on that, other than that you can always get an eval license, try it and find out what breaks and what doesn't.

- PDSOE doesn't have the same annoying 32k limits that the AppBuilder has. And it can publish code to remote appservers as well. The model's a bit different behind the scenes, but it can replace the AppBuilder "remote" mode.

- PDSOE, being based on Eclipse, also has features to handle javascript/html/css work. So that can probably replace the ps:escript editor. And if you don't like the base capabilities Eclipse offers, chances are there are plugins out there that will serve your needs.

- PDSOE also has much better integration for your classic AppBuilder-based UI screens.

(A lot of this was introduced in the earlier 11.x'es. But if you're going to upgrade, you should target the non-retired release which will be supported for a longer time).

Posted by David Cleary on 27-Jan-2020 12:50

First I heard of this and Googling shows it came out of Professional Services and not Development. Since it requires a Professional Services engagement in order to have access to it, have you talked to them about support?
 
Dave
 

Posted by jonathan.wilson on 27-Jan-2020 14:20

ok, so all my old webspeed code will just run... great!

Posted by chris on 27-Jan-2020 16:02

Hi
 
I have now been involved with a number of customers moving their WeSpeed and ps:eScript applications to PASOE. So far it has not entailed any major changes to the applications or ps:eScript.
 
Regards
Chris
 

Posted by mollycms on 27-Jan-2020 23:16

"So in the above example, it IS like buying a 2020 model of your 2017 car and getting all of the money you paid for your 2017 car to apply towards the purchase of your 2020 car! Wow!!"

To be fair, to make this analogy accurate, its like buying the 2017 car and being told if you pay us a certain % of the price every year, you can have the latest model for free and then being told we aren't making that model any more but you can get the initial value of the 2017 car back towards the 2020 model. You could debate that, although the new car your being pushed does have some fancy new features, you are likely just going to use it to get from A to B and would of been just as happy with a slightly updated release of the 2017 model for that year.

Now, as Rob's analogy was awfully simplistic, so is my counter.  I personally think a fair method would of been to allow a no cost upgrade to the equivalent PASOE (aren't we due for a new PxSOE product? ;-) ) product but with maintenance charged at the new rate (i.e. as if the PASOE was bought outright).

But in the end, yes there are some companies that handle this worst then Progress.

Just something to thing about.

Molly

Posted by Thomas Mercer-Hursh on 28-Jan-2020 15:42

Trade in to equivalent product sounds nice, of course, but there has often not been a quite equivalent product.  But, I re-iterate my challenge for someone to tell us about a similar company that has a more attractive policy than Progress.  It would be interesting to hear what Oracle and the like do.  If their policies are more friendly, it is a reason to push on Progress to match them.  If their policies are less friendly, it is a reason to be grateful that Progress is as nice as it is.

Posted by jmls on 28-Jan-2020 15:54

I've always been impressed with /n software.

www.nsoftware.com/.../

All components **. All platforms. Free upgrades.

** Including new components

Posted by ctoman on 28-Jan-2020 16:04

I think you are missing the whole point.  All the vendors i work with have free upgrades,  Look i'm not trying to change your view point,   Progress is a great vendor to work with, and most of time the price is right.

Posted by Thomas Mercer-Hursh on 28-Jan-2020 16:42

And, you get free upgrades to the *same* product when you are on maintenance.  The issue is, what happens when a product is discontinued and a new product introduced.  And, it needs to be comparable software.

Posted by slegian-bva on 28-Jan-2020 23:45

Well, it's not Thomas you need to convince, but PSC...Thomas sounds like the ideal customer PSC modelled their pricing on  ;)

Posted by gus bjorklund on 29-Jan-2020 00:12

i've has numerous pieces of software that provided free updates until the next major version. then i had to buy all over again at nearly full price. usually i start the selection process over when that happens.

but: none of that has been enterprise sw - it's all personal stuff for photography, firewalls, image and

audio processing and the like.=

Posted by slegian-bva on 29-Jan-2020 01:59

Well, don't look too far, look at Telerik for instance, you pay the maintenance, you get the free upgrade and if the tech changed, that's included. We bought the Kendo UI a while back, pre Vue and React and when those 2 came about we got them.

Still not the perfect analogy as Telerik sells a product bundle, but hey, Progress could have followed their script here and sell Vue and React as the enterprise flavor, or extra add-ons, or the Advanced Bundle, or... you get my gist.

Will probably be one of those where we have to agree to disagree and move on. I hear your point, maybe PSC get to hear mine and others I see here sharing a similar view and, who knows, we get the super duper, fully rewritten for tomcat, BPM as an upgrade rather than a new product. Hang on, that's what we got there, didn't we?

Posted by slegian-bva on 29-Jan-2020 02:02

Anyway [mention:94a529ce0d734776bb88cba454f5e531:e9ed411860ed4f2ba0265705b8793d05], interested to hear how your business took the explanation...

Posted by victorche on 29-Jan-2020 08:03

[quote user="slegian-bva"]

Anyway , interested to hear how your business took the explanation...

[/quote]
Hi,
Thank you all for this discussion. I watch it with interest. The conversation with the business has not yet taken place, it should be in the next two weeks. 

I would like to note that I think we received a good offer from our Progress Account Manager. Which is that we only have to pay the difference between the cost of the classic and new app server licenses. At the same time, we are on official technical support. I will inform you as soon as the results of negotiations with the business are available.

Wish me good luck! ;-)

--victor

Posted by Roger Blanchard on 31-Jan-2020 15:01

Our old webspeed code did just run using the compatibility handler.

This thread is closed